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and it hits me oh my gosh this is that

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triangle

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you know there's explanation for

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everything that occurred in the rendel

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champions

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incident that doesn't involve aliens at

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all it was completely silent

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it comes right over our heads he saw a

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classic flying saucer really standing in

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the cleary he turned over to my father

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and held his hand and he looked in his

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welcome to podcast ufo for our live show

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we're live every wednesday at 8 pm

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eastern standard time on the dark matter

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radio network

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please remember to visit the website

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podcastufo.com

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for past episodes blogs and forums

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during the show feel free to participate

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live in our chat room

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and don't forget to like us on our very

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active facebook page

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hello and welcome to the show i'm martin

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willis your host

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john tobin will be joining us in a

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moment for the ufo news

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of this week well tomorrow is the 17th

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anniversary of the phoenix lights mass

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sighting

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that happened back in 1997 and our guest

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today

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is jim delatoso and he's one of the very

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first investigators

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of what i consider to be on my short

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list while i'm debating ufos

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before we get started on anything we

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have this week's astronomy clip

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with andy fleming right now

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and hello martin and blisses today's

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podcast ufo astronomy segment carries on

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from last week's chat about kepler

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and exoplanets it's about astrobiology

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which is the study of life elsewhere in

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our universe

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and it's another controversial subject

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because conventional scientific wisdom

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is that we haven't found any life beyond

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the earth

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i.e 1.0

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the search for life 2.0 on those

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millions of other worlds we know exists

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requires an understanding of life here

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on the earth

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and the nature of the environments that

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support

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it we also need to fully understand

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planetary science and astrophysics

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astrobiology thus combines the resources

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of many other fields

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including astronomy biology chemistry

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geology atmospheric science

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oceanography and aeronautical

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engineering

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practitioners are often from different

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scientific disciplines but

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work together to examine complex

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questions that no one failed can answer

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alone

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these questions cover topics such as how

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does life originate

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how does life evolve what kind of

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environment is necessary for life to

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survive

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and what are the environmental limits or

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extremes

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under which life can survive what might

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life look like on another world

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is there or has there been life

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elsewhere in our solar system

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how can we observe and identify a

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habitable

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or even inhabited world

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and what is humanity's future on earth

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and beyond now astrobiological research

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has a significant impact on how agencies

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such as

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nasa and esa plan for future space

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missions

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past initiatives have focused on

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exploring our own solar system for signs

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of past

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present or the precursors of life with

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targets including mars europa and

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saturn's moon titan simultaneously

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advances in telescope technology have

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allowed researchers

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to begin searching for habitable planets

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outside

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our own solar system and therein lies

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what may be the

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ultimate irony it could well be that

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life 2.0 will not be initially found

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within our own solar system at all

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but around a world orbiting another star

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and it will be done not by spacecraft

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with

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all the budgetary political and

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technical baggage they bring

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it'll be done by the next generation of

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huge

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ground-based telescopes that are about

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to come online

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by concentrating on planets that are

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reasonable earth

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analogs that is those with fairly

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similar masses

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to our own planets orbiting fairly

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similar stable stars and

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within their solar system's habitable

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zone

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astronomers can utilize their most

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important

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life detecting tool light

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one of the macro bio signatures of life

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detectable from

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huge distances is the presence of large

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amounts of free

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oxygen in a planetary atmosphere now

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oxygen constantly needs to be

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replenished via photosynthesis

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from green plants without plants all of

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the earth's oxygen would be locked up in

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rocks as it is today on mars

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it is extremely chemically active

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an oxygen-rich atmosphere detected by

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process called

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spectroscopy would just about nail the

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issue

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the final icing on the cake would be

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free methane coexisting with that oxygen

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without plants organisms and rotting

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vegetation

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that is life 2.0 there is no possibility

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of free oxygen

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allowing free methane to exist

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except for exceptionally short periods

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of time

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so that was andy with our astronomy for

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this week

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and now it's time for the ufo news with

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john

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for having me i'm so glad to be back

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here in the

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uh whatever atmosphere the north america

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here is

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yes and uh you know i don't detect any

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irish accent at all how was your time

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over there

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it was fantastic i believe i left my

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horrible irish accent in the last

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pine of guinness i had at the pub oh i

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see it didn't go over too well over

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there huh

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no no no it's kind of like their

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american accents which were actually

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worse than my irish accent you could

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believe that

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and mine was pretty bad oh you know i

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love hearing

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when you know another country that has a

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quite a different accent than ours tries

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to do an american accent it's it's

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always funny

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it's funny but when it's a guy it always

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sounds like john wayne for some reason

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okay hey so what's going on with the

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news this week

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well there's some really cool news this

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week actually some uh kind of uh

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interesting stuff one of them is uh if

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you've ever wanted to be a gas jockey in

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space

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now what does that mean well science

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daily reports that future lunar missions

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may be fueled by gas stations in space

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according to engineers a spacecraft

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might dock at a propelled depot

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somewhere between the earth and the moon

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and pick up extra rocket fuel before

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making its way to the lunar surface

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orbiting waste stations could could

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reduce the fuel a spacecraft needs to

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carry from earth

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and with less fuel on board a rocket

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could haunch

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could launch heavier payloads such as

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large scientific experiments for the uh

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for the full story on that please click

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on the link in our show notes and i'll

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bring it to the source story

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of the full information on that

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interesting story yes you know

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i've heard of similar things um along

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the lines

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that you know they should be working

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from space

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with all kinds of things that can

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develop out in space when they don't

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have to worry about

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you know gravity or anything and and uh

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so this kind of goes along with that

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yeah i would think that a lot of these

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types of experiments would would

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certainly

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actually technically be easier without

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the gravity as far as large

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you know huge large equipment in the

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ability to move it around and work with

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it

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that's right so what else is going on

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well i've got some information here on

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the loss of good old-fashioned flying

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saucers

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as reported by lee spiegel whatever

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happened to those good old-fashioned

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circular saucers

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well accounts of them continue to show

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up in police reports newspapers youtube

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etc

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it seems like these days there are more

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and more sightings and videos of

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triangular

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and unidentified objects the earliest

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known reports of these unusual triangles

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can be traced to the dutch east indies

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in the late 1890s

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around 10 years prior to the wright

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brothers first powered airplane flight

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triangle ufos were reported from

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scotland in england in 1895.

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so that's probably triangular swamp gas

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or something

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it could be that's right yeah you know

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i agree with this though you know i mean

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there is so many more reports

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of the you know the triangular ufos

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and you know they all are pretty similar

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a lot of them

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you know a lot of times they talk about

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these like sort of orange

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amber glowing lights that aren't really

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lights they're they're hard to describe

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and

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always seem to be huge

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and uh you know no sound you know you

256
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hear that over and over and over again

257
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enough you know to certainly wonder

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where all the flying discs are an

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unrelated story though i did want to

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mention i did read the first dorito

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shaped

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ufo was actually discovered by cheech

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all right yeah pulled that out of the

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archive somewhere pull it out of the

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archives so you can look you can you can

266
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look that up it's

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true anyway moving along uh

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moon river you know moon river not the

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song however

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nasa's plotting uh a daring robotic

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mission to jupiter's watery moon europa

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a place where uh astronomers speculate

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there may be some form of life

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the space space agency set aside 15

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million dollars

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in its 2015 budget proposal to start

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planning some kind of mission to europa

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no details have been decided yet but

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nasa's chief financial officer elizabeth

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robinson said tuesday

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that it would be launched somewhere in

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the mid 2020s what do you think of this

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mark

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well you know europa has always is one

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of those

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fascinating moons and you know there's

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speculation that

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the ice could be up to a couple of miles

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thick

290
00:10:32,630 --> 00:10:29,200
and just the possibility with

291
00:10:35,829 --> 00:10:32,640
the the the amazing gravity of jupiter

292
00:10:36,470 --> 00:10:35,839
that it could be actually warm inside um

293
00:10:38,069 --> 00:10:36,480
the way

294
00:10:40,710 --> 00:10:38,079
it it's kind of hard to it's kind of

295
00:10:43,110 --> 00:10:40,720
like when you need dough for bread

296
00:10:44,150 --> 00:10:43,120
you know it heats up warm so there could

297
00:10:47,269 --> 00:10:44,160
be enough

298
00:10:49,269 --> 00:10:47,279
warmth in the ocean underneath the ice

299
00:10:50,389 --> 00:10:49,279
to actually support some type of life a

300
00:10:51,990 --> 00:10:50,399
possibility

301
00:10:53,590 --> 00:10:52,000
the only way they can really get to it

302
00:10:54,389 --> 00:10:53,600
is to do some type of probe that would

303
00:10:56,790 --> 00:10:54,399
drill

304
00:10:58,949 --> 00:10:56,800
you know the two miles down or whatever

305
00:11:00,710 --> 00:10:58,959
however thick that ice really is and

306
00:11:02,069 --> 00:11:00,720
when we think of life on other planets

307
00:11:03,670 --> 00:11:02,079
of any type uh

308
00:11:05,509 --> 00:11:03,680
we think of planets i should say not not

309
00:11:07,670 --> 00:11:05,519
the moons so hearing right

310
00:11:09,190 --> 00:11:07,680
this this story uh possibilities really

311
00:11:10,389 --> 00:11:09,200
opens up a whole other

312
00:11:12,069 --> 00:11:10,399
you know how many other moons out there

313
00:11:12,870 --> 00:11:12,079
have these possibilities i don't know

314
00:11:14,389 --> 00:11:12,880
we've got some other

315
00:11:15,910 --> 00:11:14,399
interesting news that's very timely

316
00:11:18,230 --> 00:11:15,920
actually uh

317
00:11:19,910 --> 00:11:18,240
with the current russian invasion in the

318
00:11:21,030 --> 00:11:19,920
uh conflict i should say in in the

319
00:11:22,949 --> 00:11:21,040
ukraine

320
00:11:24,389 --> 00:11:22,959
apparently not just russia is invading

321
00:11:26,710 --> 00:11:24,399
the ukraine um

322
00:11:28,389 --> 00:11:26,720
msn reported that a huge cigar

323
00:11:30,069 --> 00:11:28,399
cylinder-shaped ufo was videotaped

324
00:11:32,710 --> 00:11:30,079
hovering over the ukraine

325
00:11:35,030 --> 00:11:32,720
during russia's invasion of crimea or

326
00:11:36,630 --> 00:11:35,040
crimea something like that nature

327
00:11:38,230 --> 00:11:36,640
there is the video in our show notes

328
00:11:39,430 --> 00:11:38,240
which is pretty cool if you if you check

329
00:11:41,750 --> 00:11:39,440
that out martin

330
00:11:43,829 --> 00:11:41,760
oh yes you know the cigar cigar-shaped

331
00:11:44,550 --> 00:11:43,839
ones uh you know i i personally talked

332
00:11:46,389 --> 00:11:44,560
to

333
00:11:48,630 --> 00:11:46,399
a gentleman from russia that didn't even

334
00:11:50,629 --> 00:11:48,640
speak english it was translated to me

335
00:11:52,230 --> 00:11:50,639
uh he was telling me his whole story and

336
00:11:54,150 --> 00:11:52,240
basically it was

337
00:11:57,110 --> 00:11:54,160
exactly the same thing he said it was a

338
00:11:58,949 --> 00:11:57,120
long cylinder like a cigar

339
00:12:01,030 --> 00:11:58,959
and went through the mountain pass and

340
00:12:02,470 --> 00:12:01,040
when it did all the cars stalled

341
00:12:02,870 --> 00:12:02,480
everybody got out of their car and this

342
00:12:05,030 --> 00:12:02,880
thing

343
00:12:06,389 --> 00:12:05,040
went right over them and then as soon as

344
00:12:08,870 --> 00:12:06,399
they got out of range

345
00:12:10,470 --> 00:12:08,880
all the cars started right back up it

346
00:12:11,750 --> 00:12:10,480
was quite a story

347
00:12:13,030 --> 00:12:11,760
that's really strange it's funny when

348
00:12:14,150 --> 00:12:13,040
you when the different types we talked

349
00:12:16,710 --> 00:12:14,160
about triangular and

350
00:12:17,910 --> 00:12:16,720
doritos shaped and cigar-shaped ufos all

351
00:12:19,190 --> 00:12:17,920
the different shapes

352
00:12:21,190 --> 00:12:19,200
so many of the reports that come out

353
00:12:22,310 --> 00:12:21,200
about these are so similar many people

354
00:12:24,069 --> 00:12:22,320
from all different

355
00:12:26,069 --> 00:12:24,079
places that see them describe almost

356
00:12:26,949 --> 00:12:26,079
exactly in in different languages the

357
00:12:29,030 --> 00:12:26,959
same things

358
00:12:30,949 --> 00:12:29,040
that's right that's right so you know

359
00:12:33,910 --> 00:12:30,959
you can think maybe you know the discs

360
00:12:34,310 --> 00:12:33,920
come from one planet the cigar shapes

361
00:12:40,790 --> 00:12:34,320
from

362
00:12:44,550 --> 00:12:40,800
a cheesy moon maybe i don't know

363
00:12:45,430 --> 00:12:44,560
dorito planet yeah hey thanks so much

364
00:12:46,629 --> 00:12:45,440
john

365
00:12:48,629 --> 00:12:46,639
anytime look forward to talking to you

366
00:12:49,509 --> 00:12:48,639
next week guys thanks for listening all

367
00:12:51,829 --> 00:12:49,519
right so stay

368
00:12:53,750 --> 00:12:51,839
with us right after the music break for

369
00:12:56,590 --> 00:12:53,760
jim della toso

370
00:12:57,990 --> 00:12:56,600
and if you're listening live go to

371
00:12:59,750 --> 00:12:58,000
podcastufo.com

372
00:13:01,030 --> 00:12:59,760
right over on the right hand side you'll

373
00:13:03,269 --> 00:13:01,040
see our chat room

374
00:13:04,389 --> 00:13:03,279
it's a quick sign in and you can

375
00:13:18,829 --> 00:13:04,399
interact with us

376
00:13:18,839 --> 00:13:32,829
us

377
00:13:32,839 --> 00:14:22,230
so

378
00:14:28,949 --> 00:14:25,750
well welcome jim how are you

379
00:14:29,670 --> 00:14:28,959
way above average today good to hear

380
00:14:31,189 --> 00:14:29,680
that

381
00:14:33,030 --> 00:14:31,199
and we're we're talking to you all the

382
00:14:34,150 --> 00:14:33,040
way down in arizona where it's nice and

383
00:14:36,790 --> 00:14:34,160
toasty warm

384
00:14:37,430 --> 00:14:36,800
but quite a snow storm up here today in

385
00:14:40,629 --> 00:14:37,440
the

386
00:14:44,069 --> 00:14:40,639
yeah

387
00:14:46,550 --> 00:14:44,079
so we're we're on the eve of the 17th

388
00:14:49,030 --> 00:14:46,560
anniversary of the phoenix lights and

389
00:14:53,269 --> 00:14:49,040
the timing's perfect to speak to you

390
00:14:55,509 --> 00:14:53,279
i know what a coincidence yeah yeah

391
00:14:57,670 --> 00:14:55,519
now can you tell the listening audience

392
00:14:58,230 --> 00:14:57,680
uh you know i'm sure a number of the

393
00:15:00,710 --> 00:14:58,240
listeners

394
00:15:01,430 --> 00:15:00,720
have seen you on a documentary or two

395
00:15:03,750 --> 00:15:01,440
but um

396
00:15:04,790 --> 00:15:03,760
you have a background where you look at

397
00:15:07,269 --> 00:15:04,800
images and

398
00:15:08,870 --> 00:15:07,279
and uh video and things like that can

399
00:15:11,030 --> 00:15:08,880
you kind of explain

400
00:15:13,030 --> 00:15:11,040
how you got into this and how it kind of

401
00:15:16,389 --> 00:15:13,040
led to the path of

402
00:15:19,910 --> 00:15:16,399
of actually researching some ufo images

403
00:15:21,030 --> 00:15:19,920
yes well i had a business that i started

404
00:15:24,150 --> 00:15:21,040
in the 70s

405
00:15:27,509 --> 00:15:24,160
which was a uh

406
00:15:29,749 --> 00:15:27,519
equipment rental for signal processing

407
00:15:30,949 --> 00:15:29,759
and analysis and i rented out everything

408
00:15:33,990 --> 00:15:30,959
from

409
00:15:37,189 --> 00:15:34,000
oscilloscopes to waveform monitors in

410
00:15:40,629 --> 00:15:37,199
the early 70s before it was fashionable

411
00:15:43,749 --> 00:15:40,639
and a couple years into that i noticed

412
00:15:45,269 --> 00:15:43,759
a uh opportunity because i played

413
00:15:47,189 --> 00:15:45,279
occasionally with a

414
00:15:48,870 --> 00:15:47,199
variety of rock and roll bands and was

415
00:15:51,269 --> 00:15:48,880
promoting shows too

416
00:15:53,509 --> 00:15:51,279
in the 70s so i started a touring

417
00:15:55,269 --> 00:15:53,519
company in the 70s and

418
00:15:56,550 --> 00:15:55,279
really paid attention to it being

419
00:15:59,430 --> 00:15:56,560
high-end

420
00:16:01,670 --> 00:15:59,440
really excellent equipment so uh i was

421
00:16:03,670 --> 00:16:01,680
in that business beach boys moody blues

422
00:16:05,430 --> 00:16:03,680
steely bands and others

423
00:16:07,110 --> 00:16:05,440
and you don't tour in the winter you

424
00:16:10,389 --> 00:16:07,120
look for other stuff to do so i

425
00:16:12,550 --> 00:16:10,399
rent out my gear the generators and

426
00:16:14,310 --> 00:16:12,560
lights to the movie business in phoenix

427
00:16:17,749 --> 00:16:14,320
a couple times to the

428
00:16:22,790 --> 00:16:17,759
mining business for special things

429
00:16:26,710 --> 00:16:24,550
from phoenix that wanted to know if i

430
00:16:28,870 --> 00:16:26,720
wanted to do some work on the shroud of

431
00:16:30,550 --> 00:16:28,880
tarin project with the producer named

432
00:16:33,430 --> 00:16:30,560
socrates ballas and

433
00:16:34,790 --> 00:16:33,440
simple little thing of interfacing one

434
00:16:38,389 --> 00:16:34,800
of the test

435
00:16:40,629 --> 00:16:38,399
pieces of equipment the iridium testing

436
00:16:42,629 --> 00:16:40,639
to some display mechanism whether it

437
00:16:44,389 --> 00:16:42,639
would be video or film or whatever so i

438
00:16:45,269 --> 00:16:44,399
took that on got involved with it and in

439
00:16:47,829 --> 00:16:45,279
that

440
00:16:49,269 --> 00:16:47,839
i met a couple people from the brookings

441
00:16:51,189 --> 00:16:49,279
institute of photography

442
00:16:52,870 --> 00:16:51,199
noted place out in santa barbara

443
00:16:55,749 --> 00:16:52,880
high-end photography teaching

444
00:16:57,430 --> 00:16:55,759
that were on the strato-terrain project

445
00:16:59,590 --> 00:16:57,440
and

446
00:17:02,310 --> 00:16:59,600
they introduced me to people from

447
00:17:05,189 --> 00:17:02,320
arizona that did ufo

448
00:17:07,350 --> 00:17:05,199
research that was the group afro and

449
00:17:10,309 --> 00:17:07,360
they said hey how would you like to um

450
00:17:12,390 --> 00:17:10,319
analyze ufo pictures and develop a

451
00:17:14,390 --> 00:17:12,400
method for that and i said well i'm kind

452
00:17:16,630 --> 00:17:14,400
of busy 10 months out of the year let me

453
00:17:18,630 --> 00:17:16,640
think about it and maybe next year

454
00:17:21,270 --> 00:17:18,640
to make a long story even slightly

455
00:17:23,909 --> 00:17:21,280
longer but there was a punch line i did

456
00:17:26,710 --> 00:17:23,919
get involved the following year

457
00:17:28,470 --> 00:17:26,720
in uh approaching it scientifically to

458
00:17:29,990 --> 00:17:28,480
research what was out there what was the

459
00:17:31,909 --> 00:17:30,000
issues and

460
00:17:34,630 --> 00:17:31,919
who were the manufacturers and the trade

461
00:17:37,350 --> 00:17:34,640
associations etc

462
00:17:38,630 --> 00:17:37,360
which i could leverage into because of

463
00:17:40,950 --> 00:17:38,640
my

464
00:17:43,430 --> 00:17:40,960
scientific equipment rental business

465
00:17:45,669 --> 00:17:43,440
separate in my touring business so

466
00:17:48,950 --> 00:17:45,679
there i was in it with wendell stevens

467
00:17:52,310 --> 00:17:48,960
and jim lorenzen of afro and developed a

468
00:17:55,510 --> 00:17:52,320
scientific forensic basically a forensic

469
00:17:58,390 --> 00:17:55,520
method for analyzing

470
00:17:59,350 --> 00:17:58,400
objects and extracting data and being

471
00:18:02,870 --> 00:17:59,360
able to

472
00:18:05,270 --> 00:18:02,880
tell certain things about it is it big

473
00:18:07,190 --> 00:18:05,280
is it small is it a distance from the

474
00:18:10,710 --> 00:18:07,200
camera could have been superimposed

475
00:18:12,789 --> 00:18:10,720
as the years went on um i got more

476
00:18:15,750 --> 00:18:12,799
involved in that every winter

477
00:18:17,590 --> 00:18:15,760
because i added computer graphics and

478
00:18:22,710 --> 00:18:17,600
animation to my

479
00:18:24,390 --> 00:18:22,720
touring equipment so a few years into it

480
00:18:26,150 --> 00:18:24,400
i was finding other people that were

481
00:18:27,510 --> 00:18:26,160
experts and able to do it myself

482
00:18:29,590 --> 00:18:27,520
inevitably i

483
00:18:31,669 --> 00:18:29,600
added image processing and image

484
00:18:34,470 --> 00:18:31,679
analysis equipment as a

485
00:18:35,110 --> 00:18:34,480
product line that i rented out to others

486
00:18:38,710 --> 00:18:35,120
and even

487
00:18:42,630 --> 00:18:38,720
sold some medium and high-end stuff

488
00:18:43,270 --> 00:18:42,640
by 10 years after that i put together a

489
00:18:46,870 --> 00:18:43,280
group and

490
00:18:47,430 --> 00:18:46,880
bought a super computer and the graphics

491
00:18:49,750 --> 00:18:47,440
that hung

492
00:18:51,190 --> 00:18:49,760
on that and started a service bureau for

493
00:18:54,150 --> 00:18:51,200
people that wanted to

494
00:18:56,470 --> 00:18:54,160
rent high performance super computer

495
00:18:58,630 --> 00:18:56,480
time for image processing image analysis

496
00:19:01,830 --> 00:18:58,640
architecture film video etc

497
00:19:03,750 --> 00:19:01,840
so i had all this great gear and could

498
00:19:05,270 --> 00:19:03,760
invite other people to come in and use

499
00:19:08,710 --> 00:19:05,280
it and

500
00:19:11,350 --> 00:19:08,720
do it myself too and

501
00:19:11,830 --> 00:19:11,360
that's how i got involved with it with

502
00:19:15,590 --> 00:19:11,840
very

503
00:19:18,789 --> 00:19:15,600
precise approaches and of course

504
00:19:21,750 --> 00:19:18,799
in the ufo community um there was

505
00:19:24,070 --> 00:19:21,760
frequently a lot of hand grenade tossing

506
00:19:25,909 --> 00:19:24,080
you really you merely own a couple of

507
00:19:28,710 --> 00:19:25,919
companies in a super computer that

508
00:19:30,630 --> 00:19:28,720
doesn't qualify you to analyze pictures

509
00:19:31,750 --> 00:19:30,640
well it didn't matter to me i mean i

510
00:19:33,510 --> 00:19:31,760
never never ever

511
00:19:35,270 --> 00:19:33,520
charged for it so it was something that

512
00:19:38,630 --> 00:19:35,280
i and my staff

513
00:19:40,070 --> 00:19:38,640
i mean took took it the way we would any

514
00:19:43,430 --> 00:19:40,080
project and we

515
00:19:46,470 --> 00:19:43,440
we developed ways of of uh analyzing

516
00:19:49,990 --> 00:19:46,480
large and small objects and inevitably

517
00:19:52,310 --> 00:19:50,000
leverage that software into aerospace

518
00:19:54,470 --> 00:19:52,320
and other clients that we got wow

519
00:19:57,510 --> 00:19:54,480
so that's the end of my speech i hope i

520
00:20:00,390 --> 00:19:57,520
made a long story interesting

521
00:20:02,149 --> 00:20:00,400
good enough oh yeah what was your

522
00:20:05,029 --> 00:20:02,159
thoughts about ufos before you

523
00:20:06,950 --> 00:20:05,039
started all that uh i didn't really

524
00:20:08,870 --> 00:20:06,960
think about it you know i was a catholic

525
00:20:10,549 --> 00:20:08,880
altar boy in virginia and then i became

526
00:20:13,430 --> 00:20:10,559
a hippie as soon as it was

527
00:20:14,390 --> 00:20:13,440
available in the late 60s got in the

528
00:20:17,669 --> 00:20:14,400
music business

529
00:20:19,350 --> 00:20:17,679
so i was into the the things that went

530
00:20:22,950 --> 00:20:19,360
along with all that

531
00:20:26,149 --> 00:20:22,960
sort of interdimensional things uh

532
00:20:29,430 --> 00:20:26,159
the the bardos and the

533
00:20:31,350 --> 00:20:29,440
timothy larry books and oh yeah and uh

534
00:20:33,669 --> 00:20:31,360
be here now and some of the

535
00:20:36,630 --> 00:20:33,679
consciousness books

536
00:20:37,830 --> 00:20:36,640
were of interest uh so i but i didn't

537
00:20:40,950 --> 00:20:37,840
really think about it

538
00:20:44,950 --> 00:20:40,960
and uh so when i was then really

539
00:20:47,590 --> 00:20:44,960
involved with it uh it ranged from

540
00:20:50,470 --> 00:20:47,600
you know this is really interesting and

541
00:20:54,630 --> 00:20:50,480
possibly serious business

542
00:20:57,750 --> 00:20:54,640
and all these people are always you know

543
00:20:59,990 --> 00:20:57,760
the minions built of people being chased

544
00:21:01,430 --> 00:21:00,000
by black helicopters and people coming

545
00:21:02,950 --> 00:21:01,440
and threatening them and all that none

546
00:21:05,430 --> 00:21:02,960
of that ever happened to me

547
00:21:05,990 --> 00:21:05,440
you know some people have all the luck

548
00:21:10,070 --> 00:21:06,000
but

549
00:21:13,190 --> 00:21:10,080
i i i took it

550
00:21:15,029 --> 00:21:13,200
as something scientific and that was

551
00:21:18,230 --> 00:21:15,039
important but i

552
00:21:20,870 --> 00:21:18,240
as we got more and more involved in all

553
00:21:22,110 --> 00:21:20,880
kinds of cases and i started a couple of

554
00:21:25,350 --> 00:21:22,120
the

555
00:21:28,789 --> 00:21:25,360
congress

556
00:21:30,549 --> 00:21:28,799
i was wendell stevens resource guy

557
00:21:32,549 --> 00:21:30,559
for the first one he got involved in

558
00:21:33,830 --> 00:21:32,559
events and other investigations and just

559
00:21:36,870 --> 00:21:33,840
things

560
00:21:38,070 --> 00:21:36,880
the contactees became more interesting

561
00:21:40,950 --> 00:21:38,080
to me

562
00:21:44,149 --> 00:21:40,960
than the guy that knew the guy that saw

563
00:21:45,909 --> 00:21:44,159
the secret report

564
00:21:47,350 --> 00:21:45,919
and all that was interesting too the

565
00:21:50,789 --> 00:21:47,360
military people that

566
00:21:54,230 --> 00:21:50,799
had stories to tell and all of that but

567
00:21:58,710 --> 00:21:54,240
testing pictures for me was laying

568
00:22:01,270 --> 00:21:58,720
a framework to try to understand

569
00:22:03,430 --> 00:22:01,280
some things about their technology their

570
00:22:05,909 --> 00:22:03,440
shapes their

571
00:22:07,750 --> 00:22:05,919
how they flew how they did what they did

572
00:22:11,270 --> 00:22:07,760
what a coincidence that

573
00:22:13,830 --> 00:22:11,280
the ufos have sound and lights

574
00:22:15,830 --> 00:22:13,840
and the siddhis program in

575
00:22:17,830 --> 00:22:15,840
transcendental meditation if you learn

576
00:22:18,630 --> 00:22:17,840
to meditate with the proper sound

577
00:22:20,710 --> 00:22:18,640
pattern

578
00:22:22,470 --> 00:22:20,720
simultaneously with the proper light

579
00:22:25,830 --> 00:22:22,480
pattern you levitate

580
00:22:28,630 --> 00:22:25,840
even hand out pillows to people training

581
00:22:31,110 --> 00:22:28,640
in tm in the cities program so

582
00:22:33,430 --> 00:22:31,120
those things became interesting and

583
00:22:37,350 --> 00:22:33,440
curiosities

584
00:22:40,549 --> 00:22:37,360
more so than i don't know

585
00:22:44,789 --> 00:22:40,559
then seeing that

586
00:22:49,190 --> 00:22:44,799
there was some attachment to our destiny

587
00:22:51,590 --> 00:22:49,200
and inevitably i came to the

588
00:22:53,510 --> 00:22:51,600
a conclusion that i thought or think

589
00:22:53,990 --> 00:22:53,520
that i understand who they are and why

590
00:22:57,029 --> 00:22:54,000
they come

591
00:22:59,909 --> 00:22:57,039
here and why they hide and what

592
00:23:03,110 --> 00:22:59,919
what all that is but the basis of it all

593
00:23:06,549 --> 00:23:03,120
is the pictures and it's really about

594
00:23:09,669 --> 00:23:06,559
it's really about gathering all of that

595
00:23:11,510 --> 00:23:09,679
data about the unknowns

596
00:23:14,149 --> 00:23:11,520
comparing all of them and figuring out

597
00:23:15,909 --> 00:23:14,159
how many of those people are here

598
00:23:17,510 --> 00:23:15,919
wow what do you think what do you think

599
00:23:20,070 --> 00:23:17,520
i mean you talk to people all the time

600
00:23:23,669 --> 00:23:20,080
that are investigators and

601
00:23:27,510 --> 00:23:23,679
witnesses and all of that yeah you know

602
00:23:30,630 --> 00:23:27,520
you know i have as much of an idea

603
00:23:34,149 --> 00:23:30,640
as i started as when i started it

604
00:23:37,270 --> 00:23:34,159
you know there's just no answers

605
00:23:39,110 --> 00:23:37,280
that have set well with me

606
00:23:40,950 --> 00:23:39,120
we have a question on the board um have

607
00:23:43,430 --> 00:23:40,960
you done any research into the full

608
00:23:46,230 --> 00:23:43,440
spectrum photograph analysis

609
00:23:47,350 --> 00:23:46,240
um this bob schroeder has done some

610
00:23:49,830 --> 00:23:47,360
things with that

611
00:23:51,590 --> 00:23:49,840
and before um i'm going to keep that

612
00:23:54,070 --> 00:23:51,600
table for just a second

613
00:23:54,950 --> 00:23:54,080
i wanted to ask you have you kept up

614
00:23:57,269 --> 00:23:54,960
with

615
00:24:00,470 --> 00:23:57,279
the technology and the software as it

616
00:24:06,230 --> 00:24:00,480
has developed over the years

617
00:24:12,710 --> 00:24:09,590
i believe i have image processing and

618
00:24:16,710 --> 00:24:12,720
image analysis because what i do now

619
00:24:18,870 --> 00:24:16,720
is agriculture and plant

620
00:24:20,950 --> 00:24:18,880
technology and i use very advanced

621
00:24:22,230 --> 00:24:20,960
microscopes and image processing for

622
00:24:25,909 --> 00:24:22,240
that

623
00:24:27,909 --> 00:24:25,919
as well as keep upgrading the forensic

624
00:24:28,470 --> 00:24:27,919
image processing tools that i have and

625
00:24:32,789 --> 00:24:28,480
i've

626
00:24:34,070 --> 00:24:32,799
other software programs that are even

627
00:24:36,149 --> 00:24:34,080
out there

628
00:24:39,830 --> 00:24:36,159
that fella in france that released a

629
00:24:42,390 --> 00:24:39,840
program for analyzing ufo pictures

630
00:24:44,310 --> 00:24:42,400
i took a look at that it seemed quite

631
00:24:46,950 --> 00:24:44,320
robust and

632
00:24:48,630 --> 00:24:46,960
you know a real image processing program

633
00:24:49,510 --> 00:24:48,640
might keep track of other stuff i don't

634
00:24:51,269 --> 00:24:49,520
know if i've

635
00:24:52,630 --> 00:24:51,279
answered your question or asked and

636
00:24:55,990 --> 00:24:52,640
answered my own question

637
00:24:57,350 --> 00:24:56,000
no no that that's uh that's that's just

638
00:24:59,190 --> 00:24:57,360
what i wanted to know thank you

639
00:25:01,510 --> 00:24:59,200
and have you ever done any research in

640
00:25:04,310 --> 00:25:01,520
the full spectrum

641
00:25:06,070 --> 00:25:04,320
uh photograph well when you say there's

642
00:25:07,990 --> 00:25:06,080
two

643
00:25:09,750 --> 00:25:08,000
remember back during the phoenix flights

644
00:25:12,710 --> 00:25:09,760
there was a whole

645
00:25:14,070 --> 00:25:12,720
hotsy topsy that went on concerning

646
00:25:17,190 --> 00:25:14,080
spectrum analysis

647
00:25:20,070 --> 00:25:17,200
which i was doing then

648
00:25:21,510 --> 00:25:20,080
not to be confused with spectral

649
00:25:25,909 --> 00:25:21,520
analysis of stars

650
00:25:26,390 --> 00:25:25,919
not to be confused with hyperspectral

651
00:25:29,590 --> 00:25:26,400
which

652
00:25:32,950 --> 00:25:29,600
is special cameras and imaging there's

653
00:25:36,470 --> 00:25:32,960
full spectrum which is the full spectrum

654
00:25:39,830 --> 00:25:36,480
of light analysis and how all that

655
00:25:43,909 --> 00:25:39,840
works and i view

656
00:25:46,710 --> 00:25:43,919
full spectrum as meaning the dynamics of

657
00:25:47,750 --> 00:25:46,720
ffts fast fourier transforms but then

658
00:25:50,310 --> 00:25:47,760
again

659
00:25:52,070 --> 00:25:50,320
maybe i should have you tell me what it

660
00:25:53,750 --> 00:25:52,080
is because maybe i don't know what

661
00:25:55,510 --> 00:25:53,760
you're talk what you ask me

662
00:25:57,669 --> 00:25:55,520
if i'm familiar with and i'd love to

663
00:25:58,950 --> 00:25:57,679
know okay well that was from the message

664
00:25:59,909 --> 00:25:58,960
board so we'll wait to see if they have

665
00:26:02,230 --> 00:25:59,919
an answer for that

666
00:26:04,549 --> 00:26:02,240
but let's go into talking about the

667
00:26:07,750 --> 00:26:04,559
phoenix lights because this is um

668
00:26:10,310 --> 00:26:07,760
to me i think it's one of the uh

669
00:26:11,750 --> 00:26:10,320
it's a case that if i'm ever debating

670
00:26:14,230 --> 00:26:11,760
anyone

671
00:26:16,470 --> 00:26:14,240
on ufos i've done it a few times i'm not

672
00:26:19,510 --> 00:26:16,480
saying that i'm great at it but

673
00:26:22,870 --> 00:26:19,520
i do try and the phoenix lights is

674
00:26:25,669 --> 00:26:22,880
always one of the tools i use because

675
00:26:27,669 --> 00:26:25,679
it's just such an amazing case with so

676
00:26:29,590 --> 00:26:27,679
many witnesses and how

677
00:26:31,350 --> 00:26:29,600
can you say that ten thousand people or

678
00:26:32,630 --> 00:26:31,360
how many ever people it wasn't sought

679
00:26:35,510 --> 00:26:32,640
throughout the state

680
00:26:37,430 --> 00:26:35,520
um was seeing something that they could

681
00:26:40,549 --> 00:26:37,440
explain what it is

682
00:26:43,110 --> 00:26:40,559
yes and um now

683
00:26:43,590 --> 00:26:43,120
you know when they come back with is you

684
00:26:47,190 --> 00:26:43,600
know

685
00:26:48,789 --> 00:26:47,200
flares shot off that night but

686
00:26:50,310 --> 00:26:48,799
my thoughts about the flares and tell me

687
00:26:52,070 --> 00:26:50,320
if i'm totally wrong on this

688
00:26:53,990 --> 00:26:52,080
my thoughts about the flares was that it

689
00:26:56,310 --> 00:26:54,000
was to distract

690
00:26:57,430 --> 00:26:56,320
people from what was going on has that

691
00:27:00,070 --> 00:26:57,440
ever been

692
00:27:02,230 --> 00:27:00,080
looked into yeah yeah that that comes up

693
00:27:04,870 --> 00:27:02,240
a lot but there's

694
00:27:06,149 --> 00:27:04,880
a lot of work that we did concerning the

695
00:27:09,350 --> 00:27:06,159
flares

696
00:27:12,789 --> 00:27:09,360
issue from comparing

697
00:27:16,710 --> 00:27:12,799
flares in controls

698
00:27:20,710 --> 00:27:16,720
flares of a variety of kind to

699
00:27:22,789 --> 00:27:20,720
the unknowns of that night

700
00:27:24,070 --> 00:27:22,799
there's a real simple tool called a

701
00:27:30,230 --> 00:27:24,080
histogram

702
00:27:32,310 --> 00:27:30,240
the amount of red green and blue

703
00:27:35,269 --> 00:27:32,320
that is in each pixel in the amount of

704
00:27:37,669 --> 00:27:35,279
brightness and you can look at

705
00:27:40,230 --> 00:27:37,679
the whole picture or any object in a

706
00:27:42,149 --> 00:27:40,240
picture and you can look at it in a

707
00:27:43,430 --> 00:27:42,159
moment of time if it's a still picture

708
00:27:46,710 --> 00:27:43,440
or one

709
00:27:49,269 --> 00:27:46,720
frame of a 30 second third 30 frames a

710
00:27:50,389 --> 00:27:49,279
second video but if you look at it over

711
00:27:53,430 --> 00:27:50,399
time

712
00:27:56,870 --> 00:27:55,909
two minutes of flares and two minutes of

713
00:28:01,269 --> 00:27:56,880
unknowns and

714
00:28:03,029 --> 00:28:01,279
grab the data of the round shiny object

715
00:28:04,310 --> 00:28:03,039
count the number of pixels count the

716
00:28:07,430 --> 00:28:04,320
brightness and create an

717
00:28:11,110 --> 00:28:07,440
index for that create a

718
00:28:13,750 --> 00:28:11,120
um a method for storing round

719
00:28:15,669 --> 00:28:13,760
objects that are bright like indexing

720
00:28:16,070 --> 00:28:15,679
the way fingerprints are done indexing

721
00:28:19,269 --> 00:28:16,080
the way

722
00:28:22,389 --> 00:28:19,279
that pathogens are done for

723
00:28:25,110 --> 00:28:22,399
analyzing um the pathologists do with

724
00:28:28,389 --> 00:28:25,120
the microscope it's pattern recognition

725
00:28:31,350 --> 00:28:28,399
and the flares

726
00:28:32,789 --> 00:28:31,360
whether they're with smoke or not

727
00:28:35,990 --> 00:28:32,799
whether they're

728
00:28:38,149 --> 00:28:36,000
moving up and down or not their

729
00:28:39,909 --> 00:28:38,159
brightness their histogram called the

730
00:28:42,549 --> 00:28:39,919
sigma

731
00:28:43,110 --> 00:28:42,559
frame to frame to frame in a graph over

732
00:28:46,630 --> 00:28:43,120
time

733
00:28:48,230 --> 00:28:46,640
it varies it modulates ever so slightly

734
00:28:52,630 --> 00:28:48,240
and sometimes a lot

735
00:28:54,789 --> 00:28:52,640
whereas the phoenix lights modulate none

736
00:28:56,830 --> 00:28:54,799
rock solid so if you looked at it as a

737
00:29:01,909 --> 00:28:56,840
graph the phoenix lights

738
00:29:06,789 --> 00:29:01,919
from various witnesses is a flat graph

739
00:29:10,549 --> 00:29:06,799
30 frames a second that's 1800

740
00:29:12,230 --> 00:29:10,559
30 x 60 1800 frames a minute

741
00:29:14,149 --> 00:29:12,240
times two and a half minutes that's

742
00:29:17,669 --> 00:29:14,159
thousands of frames

743
00:29:19,510 --> 00:29:17,679
but yeah this is 1997 so even though we

744
00:29:22,630 --> 00:29:19,520
had really good equipment

745
00:29:25,110 --> 00:29:22,640
frame grabbers video frame grabbers the

746
00:29:28,230 --> 00:29:25,120
resolution and all that was still

747
00:29:31,669 --> 00:29:28,240
almost archaic compared to what 39

748
00:29:34,950 --> 00:29:31,679
100 graphics cards are now right so

749
00:29:37,909 --> 00:29:34,960
we grabbed approximately one frame

750
00:29:38,470 --> 00:29:37,919
a second and built uh what's called a

751
00:29:40,630 --> 00:29:38,480
sigma

752
00:29:41,590 --> 00:29:40,640
delta delta change how much does it

753
00:29:45,430 --> 00:29:41,600
change

754
00:29:48,149 --> 00:29:45,440
so not only did the flares uh

755
00:29:49,510 --> 00:29:48,159
that we use as controls vary

756
00:29:51,350 --> 00:29:49,520
tremendously we also

757
00:29:53,110 --> 00:29:51,360
videotaped as did a couple of the

758
00:29:56,470 --> 00:29:53,120
witnesses videotape

759
00:29:59,110 --> 00:29:56,480
flares all the time including in

760
00:30:00,870 --> 00:29:59,120
the year 2000 a special demonstration of

761
00:30:04,230 --> 00:30:00,880
players

762
00:30:06,950 --> 00:30:04,240
that were done by the national guard so

763
00:30:08,789 --> 00:30:06,960
in addition to that that measurement of

764
00:30:10,549 --> 00:30:08,799
the optical characteristics and they're

765
00:30:13,909 --> 00:30:10,559
so totally different

766
00:30:16,470 --> 00:30:13,919
there is the measurement

767
00:30:16,950 --> 00:30:16,480
of the very cold water range how far

768
00:30:20,070 --> 00:30:16,960
away

769
00:30:21,909 --> 00:30:20,080
it is from the witnesses for where the

770
00:30:24,549 --> 00:30:21,919
lights are in the atmosphere because the

771
00:30:25,990 --> 00:30:24,559
earth is ever so slightly curved so how

772
00:30:29,029 --> 00:30:26,000
high

773
00:30:30,870 --> 00:30:29,039
would the flares have to be that 52

774
00:30:34,070 --> 00:30:30,880
miles away

775
00:30:37,350 --> 00:30:34,080
in order to be at a given height

776
00:30:41,269 --> 00:30:37,360
compared to the ridge and the witnesses

777
00:30:44,230 --> 00:30:41,279
well that's 21 000 feet which we used

778
00:30:45,990 --> 00:30:44,240
maya and 3d studio max to model that at

779
00:30:48,149 --> 00:30:46,000
two different people

780
00:30:51,669 --> 00:30:48,159
back now larry low's been doing it

781
00:30:53,669 --> 00:30:51,679
fantastic version with uh google earth

782
00:30:54,710 --> 00:30:53,679
technology has changed but the point of

783
00:30:57,750 --> 00:30:54,720
story is

784
00:31:01,350 --> 00:30:57,760
that that height is far

785
00:31:07,269 --> 00:31:01,360
above the range

786
00:31:10,789 --> 00:31:10,389
national guard and visitors and luke air

787
00:31:14,549 --> 00:31:10,799
force

788
00:31:16,070 --> 00:31:14,559
even fly

789
00:31:17,750 --> 00:31:16,080
they can't fly that high they're not

790
00:31:20,549 --> 00:31:17,760
allowed to fly that high and they drop

791
00:31:22,549 --> 00:31:20,559
flares at about 6500 feet

792
00:31:25,029 --> 00:31:22,559
well here's another part this is a

793
00:31:28,149 --> 00:31:25,039
really good part concerning the flares

794
00:31:29,590 --> 00:31:28,159
about three years ago making it 15 years

795
00:31:31,830 --> 00:31:29,600
after the phoenix lights

796
00:31:34,389 --> 00:31:31,840
by coincidence i got a contract to work

797
00:31:36,789 --> 00:31:34,399
with a defense contractor in tucson

798
00:31:38,549 --> 00:31:36,799
arizona and what an interesting

799
00:31:39,830 --> 00:31:38,559
coincidence that the president of the

800
00:31:43,269 --> 00:31:39,840
company

801
00:31:47,029 --> 00:31:43,279
was a hot colonel high level in the

802
00:31:48,870 --> 00:31:47,039
arizona air national guard and the

803
00:31:51,110 --> 00:31:48,880
person who was the commandant of the

804
00:31:53,029 --> 00:31:51,120
base at the time was also part of the

805
00:31:55,110 --> 00:31:53,039
company

806
00:31:57,110 --> 00:31:55,120
i talked to them regularly they knew who

807
00:31:58,789 --> 00:31:57,120
i was and of course we talked about it

808
00:32:00,789 --> 00:31:58,799
but talked about it with the

809
00:32:01,190 --> 00:32:00,799
professional courtesies that have to go

810
00:32:05,990 --> 00:32:01,200
on

811
00:32:09,190 --> 00:32:06,000
the company

812
00:32:14,389 --> 00:32:09,200
told me that the

813
00:32:17,509 --> 00:32:14,399
alleged maryland national guard uh

814
00:32:21,350 --> 00:32:17,519
position up in the sky that night

815
00:32:23,830 --> 00:32:21,360
was as he put it bull

816
00:32:25,509 --> 00:32:23,840
can we say on the internet

817
00:32:26,230 --> 00:32:25,519
radio or is that is are we forbidden

818
00:32:27,990 --> 00:32:26,240
from saying that

819
00:32:29,350 --> 00:32:28,000
i think absolutely i think that's

820
00:32:30,470 --> 00:32:29,360
illegal we're going to get shut down any

821
00:32:33,909 --> 00:32:30,480
minute but all right

822
00:32:35,669 --> 00:32:33,919
oh man i'm sorry i apologize

823
00:32:37,190 --> 00:32:35,679
keep it under control so what he said

824
00:32:38,950 --> 00:32:37,200
was

825
00:32:40,389 --> 00:32:38,960
because the air the maryland national

826
00:32:42,950 --> 00:32:40,399
guard was in

827
00:32:44,549 --> 00:32:42,960
being trained and he said a couple of

828
00:32:46,950 --> 00:32:44,559
things he knew the fact

829
00:32:47,750 --> 00:32:46,960
that they were all on the ground back on

830
00:32:51,029 --> 00:32:47,760
the ground

831
00:32:52,870 --> 00:32:51,039
at 5 30 because they were all

832
00:32:55,029 --> 00:32:52,880
sitting around talking getting ready to

833
00:32:58,870 --> 00:32:55,039
go out and have a couple drinks

834
00:32:59,830 --> 00:32:58,880
and um and that was was it nobody was up

835
00:33:02,070 --> 00:32:59,840
that night

836
00:33:03,029 --> 00:33:02,080
the following day when it's on the news

837
00:33:06,230 --> 00:33:03,039
everywhere

838
00:33:08,710 --> 00:33:06,240
no one in the maryland national guard

839
00:33:09,430 --> 00:33:08,720
said one word like hey we were up last

840
00:33:12,630 --> 00:33:09,440
night or

841
00:33:15,029 --> 00:33:12,640
hey we the national guard from maryland

842
00:33:15,750 --> 00:33:15,039
were asked by the national security

843
00:33:19,190 --> 00:33:15,760
agency and

844
00:33:20,149 --> 00:33:19,200
norad to go up and fly a diversionary

845
00:33:24,789 --> 00:33:20,159
mission and drop

846
00:33:27,669 --> 00:33:24,799
flares 15 000 feet higher than the limit

847
00:33:29,350 --> 00:33:27,679
yeah nothing like that was mentioned or

848
00:33:32,630 --> 00:33:29,360
said

849
00:33:33,430 --> 00:33:32,640
at all in fact the base commander got a

850
00:33:36,789 --> 00:33:33,440
call

851
00:33:39,830 --> 00:33:36,799
from governor simonton the following day

852
00:33:40,389 --> 00:33:39,840
saying what was that find out about that

853
00:33:43,190 --> 00:33:40,399
one

854
00:33:44,230 --> 00:33:43,200
we got to know and of course we know a

855
00:33:46,310 --> 00:33:44,240
few days later

856
00:33:48,070 --> 00:33:46,320
that he he said he was going to do an

857
00:33:49,269 --> 00:33:48,080
investigation and then a week later he

858
00:33:53,669 --> 00:33:49,279
made a mockery of it

859
00:33:58,389 --> 00:33:53,679
right but to my satisfaction

860
00:34:00,549 --> 00:33:58,399
the arizona air guard that was up

861
00:34:01,830 --> 00:34:00,559
that night with the maryland national

862
00:34:03,830 --> 00:34:01,840
guard

863
00:34:06,789 --> 00:34:03,840
are so convinced that the maryland

864
00:34:08,389 --> 00:34:06,799
national guard people

865
00:34:10,550 --> 00:34:08,399
are making it up and they don't know

866
00:34:12,389 --> 00:34:10,560
what or why but they know for sure and

867
00:34:15,190 --> 00:34:12,399
you think about it logically

868
00:34:18,069 --> 00:34:15,200
if a diversionary operation was going to

869
00:34:24,310 --> 00:34:21,190
a visiting national guard

870
00:34:27,829 --> 00:34:24,320
would not be the ones selected to go

871
00:34:34,710 --> 00:34:31,109
good point good point others with

872
00:34:37,109 --> 00:34:34,720
more experience

873
00:34:38,069 --> 00:34:37,119
in these kind of security matters would

874
00:34:41,270 --> 00:34:38,079
have

875
00:34:43,589 --> 00:34:41,280
been sent up yeah absolutely now

876
00:34:45,349 --> 00:34:43,599
and uh go ahead and there is reason to

877
00:34:46,310 --> 00:34:45,359
believe that there is more than one

878
00:34:48,629 --> 00:34:46,320
event

879
00:34:50,550 --> 00:34:48,639
you know the big thing was you know

880
00:34:53,430 --> 00:34:50,560
where the lights above the mountain or

881
00:34:54,069 --> 00:34:53,440
below the mountain and others in the

882
00:34:56,470 --> 00:34:54,079
years

883
00:34:58,230 --> 00:34:56,480
since then have done some uh more

884
00:34:59,510 --> 00:34:58,240
sophisticated testing with better

885
00:35:04,630 --> 00:34:59,520
equipment

886
00:35:07,990 --> 00:35:04,640
and uh i believe that their results are

887
00:35:11,270 --> 00:35:08,000
are formidable that the lights

888
00:35:14,230 --> 00:35:11,280
may be right at the ridge line or

889
00:35:16,390 --> 00:35:14,240
above the ridge line and drop behind the

890
00:35:19,030 --> 00:35:16,400
ridgeline and they could even be

891
00:35:20,870 --> 00:35:19,040
some great distance away but i don't

892
00:35:23,109 --> 00:35:20,880
believe that they were a great distance

893
00:35:25,750 --> 00:35:23,119
away

894
00:35:28,069 --> 00:35:25,760
the gila river indians that live right

895
00:35:30,790 --> 00:35:28,079
behind south mountain and in front

896
00:35:32,230 --> 00:35:30,800
of front of the australian mountains

897
00:35:36,390 --> 00:35:32,240
recreated

898
00:35:39,430 --> 00:35:36,400
for a few of us

899
00:35:40,710 --> 00:35:39,440
uh and a japanese film crew and a couple

900
00:35:43,990 --> 00:35:40,720
of fellas from the

901
00:35:45,910 --> 00:35:44,000
um from bob bigelow's organization

902
00:35:47,750 --> 00:35:45,920
that were down investigating the phoenix

903
00:35:48,550 --> 00:35:47,760
lights we were all there behind south

904
00:35:54,550 --> 00:35:48,560
mountain

905
00:36:01,589 --> 00:35:59,030
were fought there recreating that night

906
00:36:03,510 --> 00:36:01,599
50 gallon barrels with fires in them and

907
00:36:04,710 --> 00:36:03,520
them cooking and playing and all running

908
00:36:07,829 --> 00:36:04,720
around

909
00:36:11,030 --> 00:36:07,839
and how they came from

910
00:36:13,109 --> 00:36:11,040
the south see from where they are that

911
00:36:16,230 --> 00:36:13,119
would be they came from the southeast

912
00:36:19,670 --> 00:36:16,240
diagonally right up through that

913
00:36:21,510 --> 00:36:19,680
valley flew directly overhead

914
00:36:23,829 --> 00:36:21,520
when they got near the estrella

915
00:36:25,589 --> 00:36:23,839
mountains took basically a 90 degree

916
00:36:26,950 --> 00:36:25,599
turn and headed towards luke in the

917
00:36:30,150 --> 00:36:26,960
north

918
00:36:34,550 --> 00:36:30,160
west part of the state of arizona

919
00:36:38,710 --> 00:36:34,560
so that was pretty interesting

920
00:36:43,109 --> 00:36:38,720
to have their perspective on what

921
00:36:45,990 --> 00:36:43,119
went on that night uh

922
00:36:49,030 --> 00:36:46,000
other witnesses other other people who

923
00:36:52,790 --> 00:36:49,040
saw it from 8 o'clock 8 30

924
00:36:55,030 --> 00:36:52,800
9 o'clock fly directly through

925
00:36:57,990 --> 00:36:55,040
metropolitan areas through airspace fly

926
00:37:01,750 --> 00:36:58,000
down to tucson turn around and come back

927
00:37:03,829 --> 00:37:01,760
all of that certainly was not flares so

928
00:37:05,910 --> 00:37:03,839
as some of the current investigators

929
00:37:08,550 --> 00:37:05,920
have so wisely done they have

930
00:37:09,430 --> 00:37:08,560
separated the controversial 10 o'clock

931
00:37:11,670 --> 00:37:09,440
sighting

932
00:37:13,910 --> 00:37:11,680
could be flares could be a setup could

933
00:37:17,030 --> 00:37:13,920
be flip fake could be a mistake

934
00:37:20,630 --> 00:37:17,040
from the hour and a half

935
00:37:23,829 --> 00:37:20,640
two hours earlier event of

936
00:37:24,470 --> 00:37:23,839
its traversing the entire state which i

937
00:37:28,710 --> 00:37:24,480
think is

938
00:37:31,750 --> 00:37:28,720
important to focus on the positive

939
00:37:34,630 --> 00:37:31,760
where there is no

940
00:37:35,670 --> 00:37:34,640
explanation frivolous or radical about

941
00:37:38,630 --> 00:37:35,680
what it could be

942
00:37:39,670 --> 00:37:38,640
it's it's that's where the real mystery

943
00:37:41,190 --> 00:37:39,680
is

944
00:37:43,270 --> 00:37:41,200
now there was something going on before

945
00:37:45,589 --> 00:37:43,280
the 10 o'clock sighting right

946
00:37:46,470 --> 00:37:45,599
now there was also a story and i don't

947
00:37:50,950 --> 00:37:46,480
know if it was ever

948
00:37:53,270 --> 00:37:50,960
confirmed i've heard that there was a

949
00:37:55,430 --> 00:37:53,280
someone that went up actually flew up to

950
00:37:57,589 --> 00:37:55,440
take a look at what it was

951
00:37:58,950 --> 00:37:57,599
and scared the guy to death and he

952
00:38:02,069 --> 00:37:58,960
started to talk about it

953
00:38:05,270 --> 00:38:02,079
this was an air force personnel

954
00:38:07,910 --> 00:38:05,280
a pilot i believe out of luke

955
00:38:08,630 --> 00:38:07,920
right well the first anyone heard of

956
00:38:11,670 --> 00:38:08,640
that was

957
00:38:12,950 --> 00:38:11,680
when a person identifying himself as

958
00:38:16,950 --> 00:38:12,960
part of the ground crew

959
00:38:19,430 --> 00:38:16,960
in airmen called peter davenport of the

960
00:38:22,790 --> 00:38:19,440
ufo reporting center oh that's right

961
00:38:26,069 --> 00:38:22,800
he gave a report that about

962
00:38:29,190 --> 00:38:26,079
maybe nine ten o'clock that night

963
00:38:29,990 --> 00:38:29,200
about what had gone on there at the base

964
00:38:33,270 --> 00:38:30,000
and

965
00:38:36,230 --> 00:38:33,280
the pilot or pilots

966
00:38:37,510 --> 00:38:36,240
who were up that he was attended to and

967
00:38:41,030 --> 00:38:37,520
how they were

968
00:38:45,349 --> 00:38:41,040
freaked out confused

969
00:38:48,950 --> 00:38:45,359
um as were others on the base

970
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:54,790
the pilot inevitably was identified

971
00:39:01,030 --> 00:38:57,910
his name was provided to me

972
00:39:04,390 --> 00:39:01,040
and i did have um

973
00:39:06,310 --> 00:39:04,400
two conversations with him

974
00:39:07,750 --> 00:39:06,320
each about half an hour he was more

975
00:39:10,150 --> 00:39:07,760
interested in

976
00:39:12,470 --> 00:39:10,160
what i think in what i knew and other

977
00:39:18,310 --> 00:39:12,480
investigators knew

978
00:39:25,750 --> 00:39:21,589
um because i i gathered

979
00:39:29,910 --> 00:39:25,760
i gathered that he was in company

980
00:39:34,069 --> 00:39:29,920
with others at luke air force base

981
00:39:37,190 --> 00:39:34,079
who did not have an explanation for what

982
00:39:39,430 --> 00:39:37,200
had happened and what they had seen they

983
00:39:40,550 --> 00:39:39,440
didn't have a u.s government or military

984
00:39:43,990 --> 00:39:40,560
explanation

985
00:39:46,710 --> 00:39:44,000
they didn't have a

986
00:39:48,069 --> 00:39:46,720
personal or spiritual explanation they

987
00:39:52,790 --> 00:39:48,079
were

988
00:39:56,390 --> 00:39:52,800
jarred by it and

989
00:40:00,390 --> 00:39:56,400
the colonel lieutenant colonel um that i

990
00:40:02,150 --> 00:40:00,400
spoke with a few months later

991
00:40:05,190 --> 00:40:02,160
i was surprised someone called and said

992
00:40:07,270 --> 00:40:05,200
hey jim turn in our bell right now

993
00:40:09,030 --> 00:40:07,280
the pilot who was up that night is on

994
00:40:12,550 --> 00:40:09,040
the air calling in and he did

995
00:40:15,030 --> 00:40:12,560
give his name but he called in and uh

996
00:40:17,030 --> 00:40:15,040
spent seven eight minutes explaining

997
00:40:18,630 --> 00:40:17,040
that he was the guy that

998
00:40:21,430 --> 00:40:18,640
had been up that night and that the

999
00:40:23,990 --> 00:40:21,440
airman the quote the airman

1000
00:40:24,790 --> 00:40:24,000
that peter davenport had talked quite a

1001
00:40:29,510 --> 00:40:24,800
bit about

1002
00:40:33,190 --> 00:40:29,520
that he was the guy so

1003
00:40:35,270 --> 00:40:33,200
the the idea that

1004
00:40:37,109 --> 00:40:35,280
there was some kind of military

1005
00:40:38,470 --> 00:40:37,119
operation or cover-up

1006
00:40:39,589 --> 00:40:38,480
they could have said something luke

1007
00:40:41,589 --> 00:40:39,599
would have said something even the

1008
00:40:43,190 --> 00:40:41,599
public information officer somebody

1009
00:40:45,030 --> 00:40:43,200
anybody would have said something the

1010
00:40:47,430 --> 00:40:45,040
following day

1011
00:40:48,790 --> 00:40:47,440
or would have said hey yeah it was the

1012
00:40:51,829 --> 00:40:48,800
maryland national guard

1013
00:40:52,470 --> 00:40:51,839
or it was it was luke air force base it

1014
00:40:54,870 --> 00:40:52,480
was something

1015
00:40:56,710 --> 00:40:54,880
anything in the bill hamilton one of the

1016
00:40:57,990 --> 00:40:56,720
investigators that was key in the case

1017
00:41:00,069 --> 00:40:58,000
then

1018
00:41:02,069 --> 00:41:00,079
called the public information officer

1019
00:41:05,349 --> 00:41:02,079
davis month in the following day

1020
00:41:05,990 --> 00:41:05,359
and he reported that the pio reported

1021
00:41:09,589 --> 00:41:06,000
that all

1022
00:41:11,990 --> 00:41:09,599
planes were on the ground

1023
00:41:12,790 --> 00:41:12,000
by eight o'clock whether they had been

1024
00:41:16,150 --> 00:41:12,800
out at the

1025
00:41:18,309 --> 00:41:16,160
gunnery range or at the florence range

1026
00:41:18,870 --> 00:41:18,319
or at the very goldwater range that

1027
00:41:21,190 --> 00:41:18,880
there were

1028
00:41:23,829 --> 00:41:21,200
no planes up in the air from any

1029
00:41:26,550 --> 00:41:23,839
direction after eight o'clock

1030
00:41:27,190 --> 00:41:26,560
wow so now i want to talk about that

1031
00:41:29,190 --> 00:41:27,200
together

1032
00:41:30,710 --> 00:41:29,200
i want to talk about the the lights in a

1033
00:41:32,550 --> 00:41:30,720
second but first of all

1034
00:41:33,990 --> 00:41:32,560
anyone who's listening live right now on

1035
00:41:36,309 --> 00:41:34,000
the dark matter radio network

1036
00:41:38,150 --> 00:41:36,319
if you want to jump over to podcast

1037
00:41:40,790 --> 00:41:38,160
ufo.com we have a

1038
00:41:41,750 --> 00:41:40,800
a chat room on our sidebar you can ask

1039
00:41:44,150 --> 00:41:41,760
questions

1040
00:41:44,790 --> 00:41:44,160
interact it's a one i think it's a two

1041
00:41:47,990 --> 00:41:44,800
click sign

1042
00:41:51,109 --> 00:41:48,000
in so um i want to talk about

1043
00:41:53,910 --> 00:41:51,119
when you were analyzing these videos and

1044
00:41:54,950 --> 00:41:53,920
i i guess it was mostly videos of of the

1045
00:41:58,230 --> 00:41:54,960
phoenix lights right

1046
00:42:00,550 --> 00:41:58,240
there wasn't any pictures had some

1047
00:42:02,470 --> 00:42:00,560
really excellent 35 millimeter films oh

1048
00:42:05,190 --> 00:42:02,480
that's right yeah yeah

1049
00:42:07,030 --> 00:42:05,200
now when you are looking at the actual

1050
00:42:09,670 --> 00:42:07,040
lights themselves

1051
00:42:11,190 --> 00:42:09,680
i was trying to explain earlier that

1052
00:42:13,750 --> 00:42:11,200
they're not like

1053
00:42:16,069 --> 00:42:13,760
normal lights they were sort of like

1054
00:42:19,349 --> 00:42:16,079
amber orange but they didn't

1055
00:42:20,630 --> 00:42:19,359
um they didn't put out light from them

1056
00:42:23,349 --> 00:42:20,640
they sort of glowed

1057
00:42:24,309 --> 00:42:23,359
what what did you find there's two

1058
00:42:28,829 --> 00:42:24,319
situations

1059
00:42:31,190 --> 00:42:28,839
one is what people that saw it

1060
00:42:35,430 --> 00:42:31,200
described and the other

1061
00:42:38,630 --> 00:42:35,440
is what the optics of a video camera

1062
00:42:42,790 --> 00:42:38,640
are able to capture so

1063
00:42:45,910 --> 00:42:42,800
the dynamic range various cameras

1064
00:42:49,829 --> 00:42:45,920
and the ccd chip that's in them vary

1065
00:42:51,750 --> 00:42:49,839
and are definitely a narrower bandwidth

1066
00:42:53,750 --> 00:42:51,760
or a different bandwidth than human

1067
00:42:56,870 --> 00:42:53,760
vision you might think of a

1068
00:43:01,109 --> 00:42:56,880
human vision as a

1069
00:43:08,069 --> 00:43:05,430
some devices

1070
00:43:10,230 --> 00:43:08,079
slide up or down on that to expose

1071
00:43:12,309 --> 00:43:10,240
themselves to the full 88 notes of a

1072
00:43:16,309 --> 00:43:12,319
piano and then some

1073
00:43:19,910 --> 00:43:18,390
ultraviolet but no one was no one had

1074
00:43:23,430 --> 00:43:19,920
ultraviolet cameras out

1075
00:43:25,910 --> 00:43:23,440
are a different octave on the piano so

1076
00:43:29,030 --> 00:43:25,920
what people would see in the brightness

1077
00:43:32,870 --> 00:43:31,990
and their characteristics are different

1078
00:43:35,030 --> 00:43:32,880
than

1079
00:43:37,589 --> 00:43:35,040
what some of the images were that ended

1080
00:43:41,270 --> 00:43:37,599
up on tape

1081
00:43:42,230 --> 00:43:41,280
so the shape and the modulation of the

1082
00:43:44,710 --> 00:43:42,240
shape

1083
00:43:46,390 --> 00:43:44,720
the change of the chain like like the

1084
00:43:48,550 --> 00:43:46,400
light bulb remains fixed

1085
00:43:50,390 --> 00:43:48,560
in a candle flickers that's the extremes

1086
00:43:53,589 --> 00:43:50,400
of this

1087
00:43:57,349 --> 00:43:53,599
that the the

1088
00:43:58,390 --> 00:43:57,359
color was not true to what people were

1089
00:44:02,790 --> 00:43:58,400
seeing

1090
00:44:04,630 --> 00:44:02,800
and were subject to the frailties or the

1091
00:44:08,309 --> 00:44:04,640
conditions of the camera

1092
00:44:10,550 --> 00:44:08,319
but the modulation was interesting

1093
00:44:11,670 --> 00:44:10,560
in them now there's another effect that

1094
00:44:13,670 --> 00:44:11,680
cameras and a lot of people

1095
00:44:15,829 --> 00:44:13,680
know that if you have it on auto focus

1096
00:44:17,829 --> 00:44:15,839
they're trying to get stars up there

1097
00:44:19,430 --> 00:44:17,839
that it'll keep turning into what looks

1098
00:44:21,109 --> 00:44:19,440
like a batman

1099
00:44:22,710 --> 00:44:21,119
going in and out of focus you know the

1100
00:44:25,910 --> 00:44:22,720
batman wings

1101
00:44:28,630 --> 00:44:25,920
there's also another

1102
00:44:29,030 --> 00:44:28,640
thing coming which is when a bright

1103
00:44:31,270 --> 00:44:29,040
light

1104
00:44:33,670 --> 00:44:31,280
over saturates the pixels and it's like

1105
00:44:37,030 --> 00:44:33,680
almost like an explosion

1106
00:44:39,910 --> 00:44:37,040
temporarily of light and

1107
00:44:41,190 --> 00:44:39,920
all the pixels around that are black as

1108
00:44:42,230 --> 00:44:41,200
it gets real bright that's called

1109
00:44:47,030 --> 00:44:42,240
blooming

1110
00:44:54,790 --> 00:44:50,230
none of the

1111
00:44:56,710 --> 00:44:54,800
unknowns in the videos that we had

1112
00:44:58,390 --> 00:44:56,720
for as bright as the people were saying

1113
00:45:01,589 --> 00:44:58,400
that they were

1114
00:45:05,030 --> 00:45:01,599
we were we were seeing blooming on

1115
00:45:06,950 --> 00:45:05,040
any of the cameras we also were not

1116
00:45:07,829 --> 00:45:06,960
seeing when i would compare and some of

1117
00:45:09,430 --> 00:45:07,839
them

1118
00:45:11,430 --> 00:45:09,440
you know like the one shot from up on

1119
00:45:12,550 --> 00:45:11,440
the mountains by the christians and glen

1120
00:45:16,230 --> 00:45:12,560
kitai

1121
00:45:19,430 --> 00:45:16,240
there's seven 800

1122
00:45:23,589 --> 00:45:19,440
lights in every frame street lights

1123
00:45:25,589 --> 00:45:23,599
airplane lights and we grabbed those and

1124
00:45:26,790 --> 00:45:25,599
gave every single one a name and a

1125
00:45:30,230 --> 00:45:26,800
number

1126
00:45:32,710 --> 00:45:30,240
and for about 300 frames

1127
00:45:33,829 --> 00:45:32,720
measured the modulation and the changes

1128
00:45:36,870 --> 00:45:33,839
of every single

1129
00:45:38,790 --> 00:45:36,880
light in all those frames

1130
00:45:40,150 --> 00:45:38,800
some of the street lights are modulated

1131
00:45:43,990 --> 00:45:40,160
a little bit because of

1132
00:45:47,670 --> 00:45:44,000
weather and mist and airplane lights and

1133
00:45:50,710 --> 00:45:47,680
they all have their own patterns

1134
00:45:51,750 --> 00:45:50,720
the the phoenix lights the unknown

1135
00:45:55,190 --> 00:45:51,760
lights

1136
00:45:57,910 --> 00:45:55,200
have a real steady graph

1137
00:45:58,390 --> 00:45:57,920
real steady for the brightness and also

1138
00:46:01,430 --> 00:45:58,400
very

1139
00:46:03,589 --> 00:46:01,440
steady shape they're not undulating

1140
00:46:06,150 --> 00:46:03,599
they're not flickering

1141
00:46:07,670 --> 00:46:06,160
and that was the interesting thing now

1142
00:46:10,870 --> 00:46:07,680
one other interesting thing

1143
00:46:13,270 --> 00:46:10,880
the lights come on like a flare

1144
00:46:14,150 --> 00:46:13,280
igniting and they're on and then they go

1145
00:46:16,950 --> 00:46:14,160
off right

1146
00:46:19,190 --> 00:46:16,960
if you build a graph and look at the way

1147
00:46:22,230 --> 00:46:19,200
the lights come on

1148
00:46:23,750 --> 00:46:22,240
in a graph it's like a stair step it's

1149
00:46:26,710 --> 00:46:23,760
like someone's got a switch going

1150
00:46:27,750 --> 00:46:26,720
click click click click and then it's

1151
00:46:29,829 --> 00:46:27,760
flat

1152
00:46:32,309 --> 00:46:29,839
and then when they go out they don't

1153
00:46:33,109 --> 00:46:32,319
flicker like a flare or a candle goes

1154
00:46:37,430 --> 00:46:33,119
out

1155
00:46:39,430 --> 00:46:37,440
it's a real conscious

1156
00:46:40,950 --> 00:46:39,440
in aviation it would be called command

1157
00:46:43,990 --> 00:46:40,960
and control

1158
00:46:44,630 --> 00:46:44,000
that it's a stair step brightness goes

1159
00:46:54,829 --> 00:46:44,640
down

1160
00:46:56,550 --> 00:46:54,839
curiosities i mean i um i just found

1161
00:47:00,710 --> 00:46:56,560
that

1162
00:47:02,710 --> 00:47:00,720
real interesting real interesting in uh

1163
00:47:04,390 --> 00:47:02,720
what that what that was and why it was

1164
00:47:06,069 --> 00:47:04,400
like that uh-huh

1165
00:47:07,430 --> 00:47:06,079
there's a there's a bunch of questions

1166
00:47:10,870 --> 00:47:07,440
up on the

1167
00:47:11,750 --> 00:47:10,880
on the message board uh one one that uh

1168
00:47:12,790 --> 00:47:11,760
i want to ask

1169
00:47:13,990 --> 00:47:12,800
right away i know there's a lot of

1170
00:47:15,430 --> 00:47:14,000
people waiting for me to ask these

1171
00:47:17,670 --> 00:47:15,440
different questions but

1172
00:47:19,750 --> 00:47:17,680
did you it says right here it says

1173
00:47:22,870 --> 00:47:19,760
didn't you come to change

1174
00:47:24,470 --> 00:47:22,880
um your mind what the lights were

1175
00:47:27,430 --> 00:47:24,480
um this person thinks they read about

1176
00:47:30,630 --> 00:47:27,440
that on some website today

1177
00:47:34,549 --> 00:47:30,640
well you know as the years went on

1178
00:47:38,230 --> 00:47:34,559
and the equipment improved and

1179
00:47:40,390 --> 00:47:38,240
we also could we do it ourselves

1180
00:47:42,630 --> 00:47:40,400
and not under the gun of hurry up hurry

1181
00:47:45,910 --> 00:47:42,640
up and do this

1182
00:47:49,349 --> 00:47:45,920
and the collaboration

1183
00:47:52,150 --> 00:47:49,359
teams enlarged there was a few events

1184
00:47:54,950 --> 00:47:52,160
that happened to recreate

1185
00:47:56,790 --> 00:47:54,960
the moment of the 10 o'clock event like

1186
00:47:58,230 --> 00:47:56,800
from mike kristen's house

1187
00:48:00,390 --> 00:47:58,240
of are the lights in front of the

1188
00:48:03,510 --> 00:48:00,400
mountain or are they behind the mountain

1189
00:48:05,270 --> 00:48:03,520
and um

1190
00:48:07,109 --> 00:48:05,280
are they at the ridge line if they're

1191
00:48:09,030 --> 00:48:07,119
behind the mountain are they

1192
00:48:11,109 --> 00:48:09,040
50 feet behind the mountain or are they

1193
00:48:15,270 --> 00:48:11,119
50 miles behind the mouth

1194
00:48:18,870 --> 00:48:15,280
so i i wouldn't necessarily

1195
00:48:21,190 --> 00:48:18,880
say i change my mind because my mind is

1196
00:48:25,430 --> 00:48:21,200
always based on

1197
00:48:28,390 --> 00:48:25,440
revealing what the data shows and as

1198
00:48:29,270 --> 00:48:28,400
these other analysis and recreations

1199
00:48:36,790 --> 00:48:29,280
were done

1200
00:48:40,630 --> 00:48:36,800
with good intentions and good science

1201
00:48:41,349 --> 00:48:40,640
that it illustrates that the lights

1202
00:48:44,470 --> 00:48:41,359
probably

1203
00:48:47,589 --> 00:48:44,480
are at the ridge line or

1204
00:48:49,430 --> 00:48:47,599
behind possibly and probably behind the

1205
00:48:52,309 --> 00:48:49,440
ridgeline

1206
00:48:54,069 --> 00:48:52,319
as opposed to the view that oh they're

1207
00:48:56,309 --> 00:48:54,079
absolutely in front of the ridge line

1208
00:48:59,589 --> 00:48:56,319
and lower than the ridge line so

1209
00:49:02,470 --> 00:48:59,599
i viewed that the science that was done

1210
00:49:04,549 --> 00:49:02,480
by ken wilson and spectrum video and

1211
00:49:05,910 --> 00:49:04,559
larry lowe with scott davis who's now at

1212
00:49:09,190 --> 00:49:05,920
channel five

1213
00:49:11,109 --> 00:49:09,200
was done um without an ax to grind they

1214
00:49:13,349 --> 00:49:11,119
weren't trying to go there and

1215
00:49:14,630 --> 00:49:13,359
prove but one way or another they were

1216
00:49:18,150 --> 00:49:14,640
they were doing an event

1217
00:49:22,150 --> 00:49:18,160
to something that was still at issue

1218
00:49:24,150 --> 00:49:22,160
so um that's the way that i

1219
00:49:25,589 --> 00:49:24,160
i view that now is that what they did

1220
00:49:28,630 --> 00:49:25,599
was valid

1221
00:49:30,549 --> 00:49:28,640
and it showed that the lights are not

1222
00:49:32,790 --> 00:49:30,559
absolutely in front of the mountain and

1223
00:49:35,270 --> 00:49:32,800
lower than the ridgeline

1224
00:49:36,950 --> 00:49:35,280
okay well i i know you mentioned that

1225
00:49:37,510 --> 00:49:36,960
earlier so we don't have to really dwell

1226
00:49:41,030 --> 00:49:37,520
on that

1227
00:49:42,870 --> 00:49:41,040
um have you ever looked into some of the

1228
00:49:47,270 --> 00:49:42,880
older

1229
00:49:49,190 --> 00:49:47,280
have um a person that was asking about

1230
00:49:52,390 --> 00:49:49,200
two different things one of them was the

1231
00:49:53,750 --> 00:49:52,400
lu book uh lights i'm not even probably

1232
00:49:58,230 --> 00:49:53,760
pronouncing that yeah a few

1233
00:50:01,349 --> 00:49:58,240
of them when i first got involved in um

1234
00:50:04,710 --> 00:50:01,359
the late 70s and developing a method

1235
00:50:07,190 --> 00:50:04,720
for apro uh

1236
00:50:08,309 --> 00:50:07,200
they had a set of 40 pictures that was

1237
00:50:12,309 --> 00:50:08,319
their official

1238
00:50:16,230 --> 00:50:12,319
apro ufo picture set so we use those

1239
00:50:19,109 --> 00:50:16,240
as our first round to analyze

1240
00:50:21,030 --> 00:50:19,119
for size and distance and create

1241
00:50:23,430 --> 00:50:21,040
principles around it and over the years

1242
00:50:25,589 --> 00:50:23,440
i've looked at lots and lots of pictures

1243
00:50:31,750 --> 00:50:25,599
because

1244
00:50:35,589 --> 00:50:33,750
in calendar moments i spent with wendell

1245
00:50:36,790 --> 00:50:35,599
stevens retired air force colonel who

1246
00:50:39,990 --> 00:50:36,800
was a

1247
00:50:42,950 --> 00:50:40,000
colorful character and a reliable

1248
00:50:45,190 --> 00:50:42,960
ufo investigator with a world's largest

1249
00:50:48,549 --> 00:50:45,200
collection of ufo photographs

1250
00:50:48,870 --> 00:50:48,559
so i analyzed a lot of them i cataloged

1251
00:50:53,109 --> 00:50:48,880
them

1252
00:50:57,589 --> 00:50:53,119
they're now

1253
00:51:01,030 --> 00:50:57,599
owned by uh john rayo and openminds and

1254
00:51:03,430 --> 00:51:01,040
they've done a really good job of of uh

1255
00:51:04,390 --> 00:51:03,440
preparing them for their longevity so to

1256
00:51:06,230 --> 00:51:04,400
say

1257
00:51:07,990 --> 00:51:06,240
so i've looked at a lot of them and you

1258
00:51:09,349 --> 00:51:08,000
know when you have copies of copies of

1259
00:51:11,030 --> 00:51:09,359
copies

1260
00:51:12,790 --> 00:51:11,040
you have what you have you know you want

1261
00:51:15,430 --> 00:51:12,800
to have originals but

1262
00:51:16,870 --> 00:51:15,440
depending on what you have you can

1263
00:51:18,470 --> 00:51:16,880
gather a lot out of it

1264
00:51:20,230 --> 00:51:18,480
one of the things that we started doing

1265
00:51:22,470 --> 00:51:20,240
on copies of film

1266
00:51:24,790 --> 00:51:22,480
or slides that we would get was

1267
00:51:27,349 --> 00:51:24,800
analyzing the film grain

1268
00:51:30,069 --> 00:51:27,359
in between the sprockets in the film

1269
00:51:32,630 --> 00:51:30,079
because if something was superimposed

1270
00:51:33,910 --> 00:51:32,640
we would find evidence of superimposed

1271
00:51:37,349 --> 00:51:33,920
grain

1272
00:51:40,549 --> 00:51:37,359
in the image area and a different

1273
00:51:43,589 --> 00:51:40,559
uh grain pattern out

1274
00:51:47,109 --> 00:51:43,599
in between the sprockets in the film

1275
00:51:49,109 --> 00:51:47,119
so that was one technique for trying to

1276
00:51:50,069 --> 00:51:49,119
find things we went to hollywood special

1277
00:51:52,230 --> 00:51:50,079
effects people

1278
00:51:54,470 --> 00:51:52,240
like wally gentlemen and linwood dunn

1279
00:51:57,750 --> 00:51:54,480
and hollywood effects

1280
00:51:58,230 --> 00:51:57,760
company and other experts in that to get

1281
00:52:01,589 --> 00:51:58,240
their

1282
00:52:05,109 --> 00:52:01,599
went to

1283
00:52:08,150 --> 00:52:05,119
software and hardware

1284
00:52:11,430 --> 00:52:08,160
big shows like spie and really found out

1285
00:52:14,309 --> 00:52:11,440
what was going on so we could apply it

1286
00:52:16,150 --> 00:52:14,319
to some of the older pictures and some

1287
00:52:18,069 --> 00:52:16,160
of the new ones but

1288
00:52:19,829 --> 00:52:18,079
there's a lot of people out there now

1289
00:52:21,670 --> 00:52:19,839
that are really

1290
00:52:23,589 --> 00:52:21,680
good at this i mean they're really

1291
00:52:26,230 --> 00:52:23,599
diligent at looking at pictures

1292
00:52:27,670 --> 00:52:26,240
and studying it and coming up with

1293
00:52:30,950 --> 00:52:27,680
things that um

1294
00:52:31,510 --> 00:52:30,960
you know we hadn't seen before right

1295
00:52:34,390 --> 00:52:31,520
right

1296
00:52:36,230 --> 00:52:34,400
you know we have we have five only uh

1297
00:52:36,950 --> 00:52:36,240
like four minutes left and i feel like i

1298
00:52:40,390 --> 00:52:36,960
have a ton

1299
00:52:43,109 --> 00:52:40,400
of questions to ask you but you know

1300
00:52:44,870 --> 00:52:43,119
um and i'm sorry i can't uh have you on

1301
00:52:45,589 --> 00:52:44,880
longer perhaps you can come back at some

1302
00:52:47,349 --> 00:52:45,599
point

1303
00:52:48,710 --> 00:52:47,359
but you know i want to talk a little bit

1304
00:52:50,390 --> 00:52:48,720
about the triangle

1305
00:52:51,829 --> 00:52:50,400
crafts because a lot of that's been

1306
00:52:53,750 --> 00:52:51,839
coming up lately yeah

1307
00:52:55,829 --> 00:52:53,760
and you know they always seem to be

1308
00:52:58,150 --> 00:52:55,839
absolutely huge

1309
00:53:00,069 --> 00:52:58,160
you know they're talking about of course

1310
00:53:04,150 --> 00:53:00,079
the phoenix lights some people were

1311
00:53:07,109 --> 00:53:04,160
suggesting it was a mile or or larger

1312
00:53:08,390 --> 00:53:07,119
and and then other people that i have

1313
00:53:09,670 --> 00:53:08,400
talked to that have seen them they all

1314
00:53:14,390 --> 00:53:09,680
say the same thing

1315
00:53:16,309 --> 00:53:14,400
huge just plain huge so um

1316
00:53:17,589 --> 00:53:16,319
where do what do you think is if you had

1317
00:53:20,069 --> 00:53:17,599
to speculate

1318
00:53:21,910 --> 00:53:20,079
you know i mean the first thing that i

1319
00:53:23,910 --> 00:53:21,920
think of of course is that you know it's

1320
00:53:26,950 --> 00:53:23,920
probably extraterrestrial but

1321
00:53:27,670 --> 00:53:26,960
you know i don't really know but um you

1322
00:53:29,910 --> 00:53:27,680
know

1323
00:53:32,549 --> 00:53:29,920
is that kind of along the lines of what

1324
00:53:35,750 --> 00:53:32,559
you think they possibly are

1325
00:53:40,150 --> 00:53:35,760
i think that they uh possibly are

1326
00:53:43,030 --> 00:53:40,160
and uh and here's what it would be

1327
00:53:44,230 --> 00:53:43,040
the laws of physics apply to everyone

1328
00:53:47,109 --> 00:53:44,240
even if you got

1329
00:53:48,069 --> 00:53:47,119
here in a time machine or an

1330
00:53:50,470 --> 00:53:48,079
interdimensional

1331
00:53:52,790 --> 00:53:50,480
place hopping machine or road on gamma

1332
00:53:55,030 --> 00:53:52,800
burst or radiation or

1333
00:53:56,549 --> 00:53:55,040
jumped into a black hole and came out of

1334
00:54:00,230 --> 00:53:56,559
quasar or whatever

1335
00:54:03,349 --> 00:54:00,240
once you get into our atmosphere

1336
00:54:04,150 --> 00:54:03,359
the venturi effect rules wings you take

1337
00:54:05,670 --> 00:54:04,160
a piece of wood

1338
00:54:08,630 --> 00:54:05,680
push it off the top of a building it

1339
00:54:11,349 --> 00:54:08,640
falls to the ground you curve that front

1340
00:54:13,349 --> 00:54:11,359
and arch the top so the ratio is correct

1341
00:54:15,670 --> 00:54:13,359
and you're lifting

1342
00:54:17,190 --> 00:54:15,680
so however they people would get here if

1343
00:54:19,750 --> 00:54:17,200
they've got a mission or they need to be

1344
00:54:22,069 --> 00:54:19,760
here a while they would make something

1345
00:54:23,589 --> 00:54:22,079
was a combination of the grand scale

1346
00:54:27,670 --> 00:54:23,599
that they needed

1347
00:54:31,510 --> 00:54:27,680
and also had the

1348
00:54:33,829 --> 00:54:31,520
principles of wings and lift

1349
00:54:36,230 --> 00:54:33,839
built into their flying machines that

1350
00:54:39,829 --> 00:54:36,240
maybe have some kind of plasma

1351
00:54:43,430 --> 00:54:39,839
fusion engine but the wing is the wing

1352
00:54:46,390 --> 00:54:43,440
so that's my take on it

1353
00:54:48,309 --> 00:54:46,400
if it is extraterrestrial it's because

1354
00:54:50,470 --> 00:54:48,319
they're flying around in our atmosphere

1355
00:54:52,710 --> 00:54:50,480
and they can probably cloak and hide and

1356
00:54:54,069 --> 00:54:52,720
do whatever but if they're gonna move

1357
00:54:57,750 --> 00:54:54,079
around they gotta

1358
00:54:58,549 --> 00:54:57,760
they can they can use that cool little

1359
00:55:01,589 --> 00:54:58,559
thing

1360
00:55:03,109 --> 00:55:01,599
the venturi effect what's why yeah yeah

1361
00:55:03,510 --> 00:55:03,119
there's speculation you've ever heard of

1362
00:55:05,190 --> 00:55:03,520
uh

1363
00:55:07,190 --> 00:55:05,200
someone on the chat room has mentioned a

1364
00:55:08,390 --> 00:55:07,200
number of times robert schroeder have

1365
00:55:11,589 --> 00:55:08,400
you ever heard his take

1366
00:55:14,069 --> 00:55:11,599
on their propulsion it's uh

1367
00:55:15,270 --> 00:55:14,079
uh no yeah no i'd like to hear it it's

1368
00:55:18,549 --> 00:55:15,280
very interesting

1369
00:55:21,670 --> 00:55:18,559
yeah i'd like to can you give me the

1370
00:55:25,030 --> 00:55:21,680
elevator pitch version uh no

1371
00:55:26,069 --> 00:55:25,040
okay i'm sorry all right i will it's

1372
00:55:27,990 --> 00:55:26,079
just it would be too

1373
00:55:29,990 --> 00:55:28,000
you have smart people listening to your

1374
00:55:32,230 --> 00:55:30,000
show smart and creative they ask

1375
00:55:35,109 --> 00:55:32,240
questions they know about stuff that

1376
00:55:38,549 --> 00:55:35,119
even kim delatoso doesn't know about

1377
00:55:41,910 --> 00:55:38,559
holy smokes you almost said the uh

1378
00:55:42,710 --> 00:55:41,920
s-h-i-t word again i know i did but i

1379
00:55:45,349 --> 00:55:42,720
stopped

1380
00:55:47,270 --> 00:55:45,359
yourself good hey um where can someone

1381
00:55:47,670 --> 00:55:47,280
find you or can they find how did i find

1382
00:55:51,750 --> 00:55:47,680
you

1383
00:55:55,589 --> 00:55:51,760
actually

1384
00:55:56,230 --> 00:55:55,599
yeah i'm on facebook and i'm on linkedin

1385
00:55:58,549 --> 00:55:56,240
although i

1386
00:56:00,470 --> 00:55:58,559
i don't harvest names on facebook and

1387
00:56:03,349 --> 00:56:00,480
that's not

1388
00:56:05,109 --> 00:56:03,359
how i do things but i have a real easy

1389
00:56:07,109 --> 00:56:05,119
email that i've had for a

1390
00:56:09,670 --> 00:56:07,119
decade that's the last four letters of

1391
00:56:13,910 --> 00:56:09,680
my name toso jim delatoso

1392
00:56:17,190 --> 00:56:13,920
so it's t-o-s-o at cox c-o-x

1393
00:56:19,349 --> 00:56:17,200
dot net uh-huh and

1394
00:56:21,030 --> 00:56:19,359
you know we only got oh i don't know 30

1395
00:56:24,150 --> 00:56:21,040
30 40 seconds left

1396
00:56:26,630 --> 00:56:24,160
but um where do you think this is um

1397
00:56:28,710 --> 00:56:26,640
where do you think this is going to and

1398
00:56:30,870 --> 00:56:28,720
that's too long of a question to ask you

1399
00:56:32,309 --> 00:56:30,880
no no i can answer that i got it all

1400
00:56:33,430 --> 00:56:32,319
right i've been thinking about this for

1401
00:56:35,910 --> 00:56:33,440
decades

1402
00:56:37,270 --> 00:56:35,920
i think that there is not a government

1403
00:56:40,390 --> 00:56:37,280
cover-up

1404
00:56:41,990 --> 00:56:40,400
okay i think that if the aliens didn't

1405
00:56:46,309 --> 00:56:42,000
want there to be a cover-up

1406
00:56:47,910 --> 00:56:46,319
there wouldn't be one wow some reason

1407
00:56:49,430 --> 00:56:47,920
the prime directive or they're going to

1408
00:56:51,270 --> 00:56:49,440
cook us and eat us later or they're

1409
00:56:55,990 --> 00:56:51,280
going to observe us

1410
00:56:58,870 --> 00:56:56,000
but i think that if we did disclosure

1411
00:57:01,109 --> 00:56:58,880
that the et's would be a no-show for

1412
00:57:01,910 --> 00:57:01,119
some reason they are curious in our free

1413
00:57:04,150 --> 00:57:01,920
will

1414
00:57:05,910 --> 00:57:04,160
in our ability to go from a pimp to an

1415
00:57:06,549 --> 00:57:05,920
avatar not to be in the tempest all that

1416
00:57:09,990 --> 00:57:06,559
bad

1417
00:57:12,549 --> 00:57:10,000
to a spiritual being in one lifetime

1418
00:57:15,589 --> 00:57:12,559
creative capacity and all these

1419
00:57:18,390 --> 00:57:15,599
marvelous things in one package

1420
00:57:20,950 --> 00:57:18,400
that makes us almost the best in the

1421
00:57:22,789 --> 00:57:20,960
universe and we've run amok

1422
00:57:24,309 --> 00:57:22,799
and they're here trying to figure out if

1423
00:57:26,950 --> 00:57:24,319
we can save ourselves

1424
00:57:28,150 --> 00:57:26,960
well so i think yeah i think that's a

1425
00:57:30,150 --> 00:57:28,160
great closing jim

1426
00:57:31,430 --> 00:57:30,160
and uh we'll have to have you back so

1427
00:57:33,670 --> 00:57:31,440
we're we're plumb

1428
00:57:34,549 --> 00:57:33,680
out of time thanks so much for joining

1429
00:57:37,430 --> 00:57:34,559
us

1430
00:57:39,430 --> 00:57:37,440
and happy to be on i'd like to meet some

1431
00:57:41,109 --> 00:57:39,440
of your smart listeners sometime

1432
00:57:42,470 --> 00:57:41,119
that's great okay thanks for having me

1433
00:57:43,349 --> 00:57:42,480
on martin it was a real pleasure to meet

1434
00:57:45,430 --> 00:57:43,359
you you bet

1435
00:57:47,430 --> 00:57:45,440
well that's it that's it for our show

1436
00:57:47,990 --> 00:57:47,440
today if you missed any part of this

1437
00:57:49,829 --> 00:57:48,000
show

1438
00:57:51,670 --> 00:57:49,839
you can catch it as a podcast and a

1439
00:57:52,789 --> 00:57:51,680
whole bunch of other free podcasts on

1440
00:57:55,990 --> 00:57:52,799
our website

1441
00:57:56,950 --> 00:57:56,000
which is podcast ufo.com you can also

1442
00:57:59,109 --> 00:57:56,960
check out

1443
00:58:00,710 --> 00:57:59,119
our links in the stories in our show

1444
00:58:02,069 --> 00:58:00,720
notes as well as joining in the

1445
00:58:05,750 --> 00:58:02,079
conversation

1446
00:58:07,670 --> 00:58:05,760
in our forums i want to give a quick

1447
00:58:09,030 --> 00:58:07,680
thank you to all the people that help us

1448
00:58:11,430 --> 00:58:09,040
out and

1449
00:58:12,950 --> 00:58:11,440
for keith rowland producer for the dark

1450
00:58:16,309 --> 00:58:12,960
matter radio network

1451
00:58:18,789 --> 00:58:16,319
andy fleming for the astronomy news john

1452
00:58:20,870 --> 00:58:18,799
tobin for the ufo news carrie lloyd

1453
00:58:22,789 --> 00:58:20,880
whitehouse for our music

1454
00:58:24,950 --> 00:58:22,799
and peggy shining she was on the message

1455
00:58:26,069 --> 00:58:24,960
board again thank you for managing our

1456
00:58:28,390 --> 00:58:26,079
facebook page

1457
00:58:31,030 --> 00:58:28,400
and remember to like us on facebook for

1458
00:58:34,230 --> 00:58:31,040
all the latest ufo news

1459
00:58:35,670 --> 00:58:34,240
you can check us out live here next week

1460
00:58:36,630 --> 00:58:35,680
right here on the dark matter radio

1461
00:58:39,109 --> 00:58:36,640
network

1462
00:58:40,390 --> 00:58:39,119
and every wednesday at 8 p.m eastern

1463
00:58:42,150 --> 00:58:40,400
standard time

1464
00:58:44,470 --> 00:58:42,160
and don't forget to jump into the chat

1465
00:58:46,390 --> 00:58:44,480
room at podcast ufo

1466
00:58:47,910 --> 00:58:46,400
well this is martin willis reminding you